Gas regs and bottle changing know how

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oldtrack123
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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by oldtrack123 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:42 pm

HI Diesal

WELL DONE ;-) :)
More posts like that are needed on other forums
But wait for the flack from th DIY exSPURTS!! :(



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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:07 pm

Thanks PeterQ,
Not trying to stir the possum, just want to keep thing interesting. I hope most will forgive my poor presentation.

This from another post but trying to collect all my thoughts into this post as it is always easier to find handy stuff here.

Of course in talking about LPG, I have tried to point out some dangers as well. Non trade’s men would be better off not getting involved. But this is only a discussion after all.

The term LPG indicates the fuel comes from Petroleum and this is the case, It is derived from oil and is a by product that used to be burned off at the top of the catalytic cracking towers as waste. It probably still is to some degree.
It is strange to contemplate that when doing shut downs on major oil refineries (plant overhauls), what we actually did. I used to reinstate the burners and repair them for a while for World services, and our hitting implements were made from copper to prevent sparks etc, no running car was allowed within 100 meters. Yet whilst in full operation there is a great flame coming off the top of the towers.
seems to be an oxymoron real life.
Anyway, when in a bottle the stuff may as well be called LG, Liquid Gas, as it is a liquid in there and when half full if you pick up a bottle and sway it a bit you would feel the LG sloshing about. OT has on other occasions shown that the specific gravity of LG is pretty close to half that of water. So if a litre of water weighs one kg, a litre of LG weighs just over half a kg.( all things being equal at sea level)

I am coming to a point here folks.....

That is why to empty from one tank to another if it's not a decanting bottle it has to be upside down, it is simply a gravitational thing.
It is also the reason that no gas bottles should be transported in any other manner than the right way up or if over filled. There is a safety system built into all tanks that is designed to blow off gas from the cylinder in the event of over-pressure due to any problem, say heat of any kind (but usually the sun).
That is why limits are placed on the amount of gas that may be carried in or on a vehicle. Or that it may only be filled to its correct say 80% full level.

Interestingly the effect on a person is usually not to get gassed in handling the product in a catastrophic leak, but the danger of instant frost bite in say, doing up a nut with bare fingers; don't ever do this. Always just turn off the bottle and then do up the leaking union.

I am not trying to be smart here but things don't "get cold". what happens is they "lose heat" and it is not the same thing.LG can take the heat from a couple of finger tips so quickly and cause more damage than a flame far more quickly that is often understood.

As a lad we were told to chew up some gum and at the end of the class the teacher put it into one ball, then placed it on a steel bench. He then took a I kg bottle, turned it upside down and played the Liquid gas coming from it onto the gum for about 30 seconds. He then picked up the gum with a pair of gloves on and threw it onto the concrete floor. It shattered like glass.

To me this thread has been far from ridiculous (rather an important topic) and shows that others are thinking about important matters in relation to all things camping and caravanning. My apologies if My writing skill can not match the topic, or that I am inadvertently being harsh, certainly not my intention.

My thanks to the anxious (rightly so ) moderators for giving this a fair go. Please refer my friend Joseph van Woerkom to this thread and he may see a story in it for the mag. But it's a bit of a hot potato. Of course there is much more to the info here, and I Could go on about the use of auto LPG as well.
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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:31 pm

More from another post but trying to collect all my thoughts into this post as it is always easier to find handy stuff here.


Can we come to grips with a small explanation of Gas refilling?
You go to a servo and a 16 year old kid takes your 2 kg bottle and attaches it to a decanting bottle. He undoes a bleed valve on your bottle. He presses the valve lever and inside the large decanting bottle is a tube which goes down to almost the bottom of that decanting bottle. The liquid then flows up, through the pipe, and into your small bottle.
The bleed valve is letting out pure gas and air from within the small bottle to an aprox 80% level and then pure lpg starts to sputter out. This indicates your small bottle has reached its full 80% capacity. The main large bottle is turned off and the bleed valve closed, all valves shut and the small bottle is disconnected.
All this should take place in a well ventilated area.
Realize that the lad has had the benefit of being shown in a 5 minute demo by the manager who had a 5 minute demo when he started from his manager. And we are talking high pressure connections here.
No one is talking about death and destruction in any signs around the servo’s that I have seen.
The only reason the decanting bottle is made this way is for ease of use. If it didn’t have the decanting tube inside, the attendant would have to turn it upside down. This is because the liquid is what is needed to fill another bottle and not just the gas boiling off the top when a normal bottle is upright.
Now if you were travelling thought say the metropolis of Booligal and the garage decanting bottle was empty, but you really needed that small bottle filled, It could be done.
First the attendant could simply screw his trigger tap into a 20 kg bottle but make sure the connection for the bottle was facing upwards. Then the bottle could be hung upside down off anything strong enough to take its weight, and your small bottle connected. Then take completely same actions taken to fill your bottle. He would in fact have created a decanting tube from the entire bottle.
What has happened is that the fluid now will run to the bottom of the larger bottle and into the small bottle. All that has been done is to remove the need for the decanting tube inside the bottle.
Ok I learnt all this at trade school; we did it in school grounds. I don’t recommend the uninitiated try it. But what is wrong with telling folks how things work? Do we shut down Wikipedia if it explains how a bullet escapes a rifle?
Let’s get this into perspective before the fragile death sayers get into action here.
You all can disconnect your two gas bottles on your van; most connections direct from the factory use flexible fittings.
Understand that a person filling a bottle is doing no different, just connecting two bottles in a safe area, opening the bleeder valve and holding one bottle upside down. It’s done every day by basically untrained people.
So why are a couple of hysterical people whining about all the death and destruction to a moderator? No one has to do it, and it’s not a wide spread activity, but the world won’t end if done with care. But no, we can let fear be our friend and just cut of anyone else’s view.
The blokes at the servos have just as much training as you or I.
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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:37 pm

Auto lpg system vs camping system
Question....Can I run camping gear off the gas line from a cars LPG supply?
No, because a car uses a direct liquid flow of gas to the engine, where as a lpg cooker uses the gas from the top of the LPG in the gas bottle.
The same thing applies in the decanting or refilling process when we fill a gas bottle. The supply decanting bottle has a tube to get the raw lpg as a fluid into your empty tank. The opening of the valve on the empty bottle allows the greater pressure of the full decanting bottle fill your bottle.
That’s why at the end of the process, your bottle releases a stream of liquid gas at the aprox 80 - 85 % full point.
But, if there was a tee in the line with a stop tap on it at the cars tank. And the correct fittings were used; you could in an emergency decant from the car to a empty cylinder or into a car that had run out of gas. It’s all hypothetical, but that is after all, what you are doing at a servo. Just decanting from their big tank to your car, but with the right equipment.

That doesn't mean we can justify this sort of thing though. Just showing what I mean with hose connections. This car is being filled from that upside down gas bottle.It is just an internet pic. That is a dangerous thing to do if things go wrong.


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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:44 pm

Government Decanting info
http://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/formspu ... t-3868.pdf
Recently, fires broke out at two service stations in Sydney as a result of unsafe practices when decanting LPG into
smaller cylinders, such as those used in barbecues. Although no injuries were sustained, significant damage was caused
to both properties and a serious threat was posed to workers, members of the public, and surrounding residential and
commercial premises.
These incidents highlight the potential danger associated with filling cylinders by decanting. In particular, the risk of fire
and explosion when cylinders are over-filled or potential ignition sources, such as static electricity, are not controlled

The WHS Act requires persons conducting a business or undertaking (PCBUs) to take all necessary steps to ensure that
safe systems of work are implemented and maintained, and workers are provided with adequate information, training and
supervision in the workplace.
Clause 351 of the WHS Regulation outlines specific obligations for those who use, handle, generate or store hazardous
chemicals at a workplace, and clause 355 states that an ignition source must not be introduced into a hazardous area.
A hazardous area surrounds an LPG cylinder that is used to decant into smaller cylinders. Potential ignition sources
include static electricity and electrical equipment such as ice freezers.
Risk controls
The following are some of the control measures that should be considered when decanting LPG into cylinders:

Ensure that cylinders have been inspected and have a current inspection mark.

Do not use cylinders that are damaged or corroded.

Do not use cylinders with damaged attachments or leaking hoses.

Locate the decanting area a safe distance from fuel dispensers, flammable materials, tanks containing dangerous
goods, public places, and building entries and exits.

Ensure LPG cylinders, attachments and associated pipe work is protected from damage – eg ensure the main
decanting cylinder is protected from a vehicle collision.

Ensure no ignition sources – such as ice freezers, static electricity and smoking – are introduced into a
hazardous
area.

Ensure operators engaged in LPG decanting are able to demonstrate competency in decanting procedures and
emergencies, and in using personal protective equipment (PPE) appropriate for the task.

Ensure operators understand the nature of static electricity, and the associated controls built into the safety

Ensure operators are trained to identify any worn or damaged parts in the decanting equipment.

Display a notice reading ‘Flammable Gas, No Smoking’ (with letters at least 50mm high) as close as possible to
the decanting area.
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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:52 pm

This to show the difference between differing gas valves as well. The auto mobile one on the left is what is in your tank, or a similar float system that just gives a reading to a gauge.
The right one is what most modern bottles have and is a pol fitting

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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:00 pm

the left is a pol fitting showing the O ring that does the sealing and are easy to do up.

Don't sweat on what pol stands for as you won;t remember it even if I tell you. :D

The standard pig tails are the old fashioned type of close ground perfect fit type and can be a problem if dirt gets into them.

I actually haven't seen Pig tails with pol connections but that would be a good idea.

If you don't do it already and have pol fittings get some spare O rings or you may have trouble on the road.

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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by Old Techo » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:43 am

G'day DT,

At the risk of sounding like a smartass I need to correct you again :oops: Sorry, but you are presenting valuable and important info so any error should be addressed.

The POL (Prest-O-Lite company) fittings have been around for decades. I have quite a few of the original style POL. I made some up as adaptors to other fittings.

The first time I saw the old POL fitted with an O ring was when I bought my van in 2004. By the way, these flexible hoses are now nearly a decade old and remain issue free. So much for the 'flexible hoses are crap' brigade. Now this is the same old POL but with a groove machined to add the O ring. I figure this has the advantage of achieving a perfect seal with much less tightening torque of the POL nut. The downside is you need to monitor the O ring condition. The pre O ring POL also has a downside and that is any slight damage to the smooth surface will cause a leak. I have taken an old slightly damaged POL and cut a groove on my lathe to add the O ring.

Last time this stuff was discussed here I explained how I transferred 100% of the contents from one cylinder to another. My post was deleted by a Mod as I guess it was deemed too much info and condoning risky or illegal practices - so I won't risk be pinged again ;-) Also I imagine one can't readily go and buy any fitted hose/pipe that allows such practices. I note in your pic of a car being filled by an inverted bottle that at least the proper hose with the obligatory dead-mans trigger is used.
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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:55 am

Hi OT I totally agree, And if there is an error it needs addressing.

Yes the old pol fittings had the different type seal. These days the O ring seems to be more common .

I must admit that I don't buy a lot of LPG fittings so have probably been left behind on a fair bit of hard ware.
I actually thought that maybe the older type were superseded, If not, that's another part it may be handy to carry. I have a dislike for the old type close fit connectors as they wear and are the easiest to get a leak in.

I sure don't mind input from any member as well.
That's why it is good to see the whole picture. Better to let people see some of the dangers as well as what is happening in the industry
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Re: Gas regs and bottle changing know how

Post by dieseltojo » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:20 pm

This is a good guide to gas regs found on the internet.
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/LinkClick.asp ... 1&mid=1541

http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/LinkClick.asp ... id=1541Gas safety data by manufacuring company.
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